Talk:Trumps

From Tarotpedia

[edit] Atouts

Have to disagree on this.

In the French GAME, there are 22 Atouts, of which three are 'Oudlers' (1 or Petit, 21, and Excuse)

The term TRUMPS excludes the Excuse, but not Atouts

Jmd

Jmd ... This issue is interesting; that's for sure.

From the rules for the game Tarot at http://membres.lycos.fr/arcmap/tarot/ :

L' Excuse

L'Excuse n'a aucune valeur d'atout. Elle sert d'appoint (en "s'excusant") pour le joueur qui la possède et qui peut la jouer à toute levée en remplacement de n'importe quelle carte, soit à l'atout, soit dans une couleur. Elle reste la propriété du joueur qui la détient ; si l'adversaire gagne le pli dans lequel se trouve l'Excuse, celle-ci est remplacée dans le pli par n'importe quelle carte basse prise dans les levées précédemment acquises par le camp du détenteur de l'Excuse.: http://membres.lycos.fr/arcmap/tarot/

As well, the tarot (game) articles on both French Wikipedia and English Wikipedia indicate that there are only 21 atouts, not 22.

--Aquarius Rising 17:32, 26 January 2006 (PST)

It is an interesting language shift...

From the rules, you quote that L'Excuse n'a aucune valeur d'atout, and would suggest that this indicates that this is correct: an atout with no value, thus one that cannot take a hand in the game. In the game, one is required to play the excuse, for example, if no other atouts are left. I would suggest that both the French and English Wikipedias are therefore incorrect, though undoubtledly reflecting views that are also prevalent.

I also do realise that over the past 20 years, especially with the rise of antagonistic views towards what some term 'occult tarot', the inclination is to separate the Fou from the other imaged cards, thereby also breaking a sense for the numbers, and that without. Of course, in early decks, the Fou is there (unnumbered and unnamed - as they all are) as part of the set - see, for example, Visconti-Sforza_Tarot or even the Boiardo poem!

I would suggest, that therefore the term atouts is the most inclusive (though not as used in the English language outside of a few people), as it does not suggest 'arcana'-'occult'-type considerations. 'Trumps', though having that same ambiguity, have tended to refer more to numbered atouts (at least over the past 20 or so years), and are consistent with the usage of the term in other card games in which a 'trump' takes the hand.

[oops - forgot to sign! Jmd 18:57, 26 January 2006 (PST)]